The Escape from Alcatraz Triathlon is a bucket list race for triathletes around the world. It has a famous start, a unique course, and a picturesque destination location. From start to finish it is truly a one-of-a-kind race. In August 2021, the race celebrated its 40th anniversary of athletes swimming, biking, and running their way through San Francisco to Escape from Alcatraz Island. Today's episode guest, industry veteran Eric Gilsenan, has made more Escapes than anyone else with 32 successful Escapes from Alcatraz. Listen in as Eric shares stories, describes his experiences, and prepares you to perform your best if you decide to race this iconic event. Huge thanks to deltaG for partnering with us on this episode. To learn more about the performance boosting benefits of deltaG Ketones head to deltaGketones.com and use code TRIDOT20 for 20% off your order. On their site you can: 1. Learn more about fueling with deltaG ketone products 2. Make a standalone purchase, or subscribe for ongoing deltaG ketone deliveries 3. Book a FREE 15 minute video consultation with Brian, an expert on exogenous ketones, and deltaG in particular, to discuss your individual goals and best choice of deltaG drink to exceed those goals.
TriDot Podcast .102
Escaping Alcatraz with Eric Gilsenan
Intro: This is the TriDot podcast. TriDot uses your training data and genetic profile, combined with predictive analytics and artificial intelligence to optimize your training, giving you better results in less time with fewer injuries. Our podcast is here to educate, inspire, and entertain. We’ll talk all things triathlon with expert coaches and special guests. Join the conversation and let’s improve together.
Andrew Harley: Hey folks! Welcome to the show! We've got a doozy for you today, as we take a little inspiration from Clint Eastwood himself and set out to Escape from Alcatraz. We'll take you through the history of the race, and more importantly, how to conquer it yourself when it's your turn to escape. Our guide to all things Alcatraz is legendary triathlete Eric Gilsenan. Eric has been a competitive triathlete for over three decades, and has successfully escaped from Alcatraz 32 times. He is the announcer and historian for the Escape from Alcatraz event, and is the host of the Beyond podcast sponsored by Ironman and Hoka. Eric, welcome to the show!
Eric Gilsenan: Thank you, guys, thank you very much! It's a pleasure to be here, and nice to be known for a great race like Alcatraz!
Andrew: Also joining us today is coach John Mayfield. John is a USAT Level II and Ironman U certified coach who leads TriDot’s athlete services, ambassador, and coaching programs. He has coached hundreds of athletes ranging from first-timers to Kona qualifiers and professional triathletes. John has been using TriDot since 2010 and coaching with TriDot since 2012. And John, you just made your first Escape from Alcatraz yourself, so you only have to do the race 31 more times to catch up to Eric. Are you excited to chat about the race today?
John Mayfield: Yeah, so, this race is actually special. It combines two things that I'm really into. Everybody knows I love triathlon, passionate about triathlon, but kinda' oddly, one of my interests is prisons, especially old prisons, and Alcatraz is the Mecca. So to get to combine my interest and odd fascination with prisons with triathlon was amazing and super cool.
Eric: That's great.
Andrew: Well, I'm Andrew the Average Triathlete, Voice of the People and Captain of the Middle of the Pack. As always we'll roll through our warmup question, settle in for our main set conversation, and then wind things down with our cooldown. Lots of good stuff, let's get to it!
Warm up theme: Time to warm up! Let’s get moving.
Andrew: I love it when athletes from the TriDot family send in a warmup question, and we've got a great one today from Jillian from Washington state. When I opened this audio file for Jillian's question and listened to it, my wife was actually in the office doing a little work herself, so she heard Jillian's question and immediately said, "Ooh, that's a good one!" So Jillian, thanks so much for the question! You even got the Morgan Harley seal of approval. Let's see what she has us answering today.
Jillian Carlson: Hi, Jillian Carlson from Fife, Washington, and I want to know if you have any pre-race or pre-assessment rituals or superstitions. With limited racing, I haven't yet developed a pre-race ritual, but before every assessment I have to have freshly brushed teeth, no matter what time of day or how long it's been since I last brushed. I know I can't be alone in this. The more unique, the better. Thanks!
Andrew: I also want to mention that Jillian made HER first Escape from Alcatraz this year as well. She had a great race; John and I saw her out there on the run course. So Eric, before a race or a really important workout, do you have any gametime habits or rituals?
Eric: Well, it's interesting that she's talking about brushing her teeth, because about 35 years ago there was a triathlete named Cliff Rigsby, and one of his things was to come off the bike in Kona and brush his teeth before going out on the run.
Andrew: Really?!
Eric: That was just Cliff Rigsby, but yeah, that was back in the day. My buddy Whit Raymond, great announcer, he was famous for telling that story. You know, I really don't. I don't have any real pre-superstitions, especially with Alcatraz. I'm working before I jump off the boat, so no, just always maybe eat half my breakfast. You know, if I eat a whole bagel, I'll eat a half a bagel. If I drink two cups of coffee, I'll drink one. One Gu to top it off. But no, nothing really too traditional.
Andrew: You've just been out there so many years, been there, done that. You've got your flow, no superstitions, you just know what to do.
Eric: Not to make light of the intensity of it, but yeah, this year was like on automatic pilot. It's just like, "Okay, I'm back here again." Just do-do-do-do, get through it, and then do awards.
Andrew: Yep, that's the experience paying off there, Eric, that's what that is.
Eric: That's true. Good lesson.
Andrew: Coach John Mayfield, what about you? Any pre-assessment or pre-race rituals that you do?
John: So I will say that brushing teeth in T2, especially after an Ironman, it does kind of make sense. If you've done it, and you've been drinking sugary drinks for the last five, six, seven hours out there on the bike, I get that. It makes sense because we've talked about before on some of the others, you get that palate fatigue, flavor fatigue, where you just don't want any other sugary sports drinks, but yet you've got to go run a marathon. So maybe there's something to that. I think that definitely checks out. For me, not so much rituals or routines, but every time I race I do love to represent the great State of Texas, and I do so with my socks. Just this past weekend racing Alcatraz I wore my Lone Star socks, saw a couple other Texans out there on the course. and was sure to give them a shout out. So yeah, I always try to wear my Texas-themed socks out there on the race course.
Andrew: Yep, I was running with John. John and I came off the bike at the same time actually and started the run together, and John you actually heckled a girl wearing a University of Texas jersey. You had to let her know what you thought about that. But good point. I almost feel like going back to the brushing your teeth thing: would it not be faster in transition to maybe just do a quick hit of Listerine or some mouthwash to keep going instead of taking the full-on time to brush your teeth? I don't know, that's just me. Just an idea for anybody who wants to do that. But for Jillian's case, she's doing it before her workout, she's brushing her teeth. So she goes into that assessment workout with a fresh mouth. For me, my ritual, it's not really a superstitious thing, I just actually have a favorite pair of socks. John, kind of like you, I have a favorite brand of socks. I save my Wattie Ink socks for assessment day and for race day, and when I throw those things on, it's just that mentality of like, "This is game time." I'm going into it, I'm bringing the A game, I've got my favorite socks on. It's partially just to preserve those socks, I don't wear holes through them or anything and not have them on race day, but it's also just because there's that mental edge of almost like a swimmer shaving down before a swim meet. Instead of doing that, it's just putting on my race socks just gets me mentally in that zone.
Hey guys, like we do every single Monday, we're going to take this warmup question and throw it out to you guys. Make sure you are a part of the I AM TriDot Facebook group. There are thousands of athletes that every single day are just talking swim, bike, and run in that group. So we will post this question to you, the listeners today: Do you have a pre-workout or a pre-race ritual that you like to do? Can't wait what you guys have to say.
Main set theme: On to the main set. Going in 3…2…1…
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The Escape from Alcatraz triathlon is a bucket-list race for triathletes everywhere. It has a famous start, a unique course, and a picturesque destination location. From start to finish, it truly is a one-of-a-kind race. For the 2021 edition, the race is celebrating the 40th anniversary of athletes swimming, biking, and running their way through San Francisco to escape from Alcatraz Island. Our guest today has made more escapes than anyone else in history, with 32 successful escapes from Alcatraz. No one knows this race as well as Eric Gilsenan. So Eric, surely by now you've proven that you could escape if you ever got imprisoned on Alcatraz Island. How many times do you plan on doing this race?
Eric: I'm 56 going on 26, and so I figure this was 32, next year is 33, and that's a third of a century. I'd like to go – because there are 70-year-olds finishing it, and I saw that this year because I was doing the awards and gave them those awards – I'd like to think 50 is possible. I started when I was 24, so when I'm 74, I'll do 50. So we'll see what happens. One year at a time. We have the aquathon now, which is great. Hopefully listeners that might want to do the Escape step up and do the Saturday swim and run, and then do the whole classic on Sunday the following year. But we have two events now, so it's a long weekend. By the time I'm going up the sand ladder, I've helped with athlete meetings, two events, and the awards await. But so does the pizza and Coke and nice chocolate-chip cookies. So I have that going for me, which is nice. But if I was a prisoner on Alcatraz I probably would have tried to escape, and who knows if I would have made it or not. But yeah, I've been doing it 32 years. I've done the swim about 80 times, but I did it in '89 as my first triathlon ever. I did it actually two years, in '95 or '96, when ownership was in question, who owned the event, and they had two people put two events on. I did both to figure out which one was the best, but that's irrelevant. I've done it almost a third of a century at this point, 56% of my life.
Andrew: Yeah, so just to be thorough, you did both races that year. Just to make sure you weren't missing out on any Escape from Alcatraz event.
Eric: I wanted to see which one was the legitimate real one, and I figured it out. And I kept going year after year.
John: And hopefully that's the one that's still going. Hopefully the better one won out.
Andrew: So Eric, you keep coming back every year for more, and you're not alone in that regard. For many athletes, once they get a taste of this race, they just keep coming back to do it again and again and again. Just tell our listeners that maybe aren't familiar with the ins and outs of what makes this race so special. What makes it so compelling that so many athletes do it year and in and year out?
Eric: Sure yeah. A woman that won her age group and is with Water World Swim – Kathy Winkler – she's been doing it for decades. Dwayne Franks, a coach out at Marin – he is a former Golden Gate Triathlon Club president – he's been doing it for years. Steve Titan – remember we all took the SAT test? He used to be the treasurer of SAT – he's done it for 20 years. A guy named – not Larry Mondello from Leave it to Beaver, but Jerry Mandello from Florida – he has done it for 22 years. He actually participated in 1985 in the first full Ironman in the domestic 48 states, which was put on by Dave McGillivray at Craigville Beach called the Cape Cod Endurancethon, that's how far back Jerry goes. He even goes back to Diet Coke Triathlon Series, which Tom Ziebart put on with Freddy Reznik in Florida in the 80's, so Jerry's been around a long time. Then there's also Scott Cathcart, who has done it for 24 years in a row. Then there's also one guy that comes up to me – and he didn't this year because he didn't do it – but he comes up to me, and he introduces himself and he says he's been doing it longer than me. But I don't know. I don't remember him, I don't know he's wearing the T-shirts. And the biggest thing is, he's not giving back!
My first year was '89, and it was my first triathlon ever, but I was a pretty good swimmer out of the Coast Guard. And then in '90, I called up the race director and said, "Hey, what can I do to help? What can I do to maybe get a discount?" So it was $100 back then, and the race director, Dave Horning, said, "Well, cut up the PowerBars, cut up the bananas, mix the Gatorade; you'll be an aid station captain, and I'll give you an entry for $50." So the second year I worked it AND I did it. And I kept doing that year after year, working it and doing it. So this was my 32nd year doing it, but it was my 31st year working it. Then, you know, I suggest to people who do triathlons: if you are a triathlete, if you're just a recreational triathlete, okay do one or two and that's great. Keep coming back. But if you're a lifestyle person that does two or three or four, has that little M-Dot and that tattoo on the ankle or whatever, give back to the sport and be a volunteer. People say to me, "Hey Eric, how do I become a better triathlete?" Well, sometimes physically, mentally, spiritually, you've apexed, and you've got a plateau, and be okay with that. And one way to advance to the next level is to be a volunteer. Then you get the operations end of triathlon. So you're just not an end-user, consumer, taker. You're a giver. You're able to give back to the athletes, and that's absorb swearing from customers. Gatorade – having your hands stick together so you can't even pull your fingers apart, you've got so much gel and drink and all. And sweeping up cups and picking up trash and all that stuff. Being a volunteer, that gets you to the next level as well, because then when you're an athlete, then you might not litter as much, or you might thank the volunteers. And boy, you want instant karma, as Reilly always says, you look those volunteers in the eye and say thank you. That's instant karma out there.
John: So the guy you didn't recognize but says he's done it over and over, his name isn't Frank Morris is it, or he didn't claim to be Frank Morris?
Eric: No, not the Anglin brothers or Frank. No, it wasn't them, but I think they made it, though. I think they made it to Brazil.
John: You know, I always would kind of like to think that they did, but after having experienced that swim, I am highly confident they got sucked out in that ocean!
Andrew: So John, this was your first crack at this race, and you've done a lot of different races. Going into this race, on paper it's kind of a pseudo-Olympic-distance race, it's kind of in between an Olympic and a 70.3. John, you said to me after the race, because you're training for Ironman Maryland that's 30-something days away, you were like, "I'm so glad I entered this race in Ironman shape." Because that swim, we had a tough day out there on the swim. The course is just so unique. So John for you, making your first escape, did the race live up to the hype for you?
John: You know, I think I'm a bit of a tough one for that, just because I've been to so many amazing events. I'm pretty laid back; I don't get super excited about stuff. I'm not super impressed with stuff. But man, I gotta say, this race absolutely exceeded expectation. Such a cool event, from arriving in San Francisco to all the things leading into the race. Fantastic vibe. Even all the resources Eric and the crew provided in the weeks leading into the race were just first-class. You show up on race day prepared, because it's very unique – both in the distance, the course itself, the logistics around it. But they do a fantastic job. So Eric, props for everything you and the crew did for that. I arrived at the race with a high level of confidence, knowing that there's a lot to do, but we know what to do and how to do it, and then of course all the personnel on the ground were fantastic as well. Then just the event itself was so unique. Like I said, I already have this intrigue around prisons. Every time I go to Northern California, which is about once a year, I go see Alcatraz. I've done the nighttime tours and the behind-the-scenes just because it's that cool. But to get out there, ride a ferry out there, do a loop around the island prior to jumping off the boat, it was just so iconic, so cool, and then get to experience that and see. One thing they talk about is roll over and take a look around, look back at the island. That was just surreal. And then roll over and look at the skyline of San Francisco. It was amazing. It was kind of hard to see the bridge. There was a whole lot of fog Sunday morning, but you could kind of make out where it was, and man that was just so cool. That's just not an experience I've had in any other race. Of all the races that I've done, so very unique. And then just the beauty of Golden Gate Park, the difficulty of the climbing that is involved, a thousand feet of gain over 18 miles. Some of the descents were scary and scary fast, and then to see the beautiful ocean coming around that; there's one descent and a curve, and then you see the ocean and the beach. It was amazing. And then the run was so cool. Once again, having the privilege to get to race with you is always great, but man, just such a cool run course. You can't get bored. Eight miles, I don't think, has ever passed so quickly, just because it was something new around every corner. Literally, you're running on a path, and then a trail, and then you're running through an old fort, and then running through a tunnel and trying not to get decapitated because the exit of the tunnel is only about four feet high.
Eric: Three and a half.
John: On to the beach, and then the famous sand stairs, and then just a super-cool finish, second to none. So yeah, I gotta say the event just by far exceeded expectations. Yeah, it was so good. It was so fun. Fantastic experience, great race.
Andrew: I told my wife right after I finished and exited the athlete area and got with her, I told her first thing, "That was the wildest 3½ hours of my life," because it absolutely was. No 3-ish hours in my life leading up to that compares. And I also told her, "There was not a moment on that course where you felt like you were racing a normal triathlon." You were always aware. You hear about the famous jumping in the harbor, you hear about the whole ferry experience, you hear about the sand stairs, so there's certain iconic moments of the course you hear about, but literally every second, from start to finish, I was always aware that I am on a different race course. I am on a special race course. I am doing a race that is very different and very special. Even some of the other best races on the circuit, there's moments where a road is just a road, a patch of sidewalk is just a patch of sidewalk. But the entire course – swim, bike, and run – there in San Francisco, it just feels special. It feels different, and I had an absolute blast.
So Eric, John and I, obviously we're reflecting, because this was our very first time experiencing this race. It was No. 32 for you. How did your race go? Walk us through it!
Eric: Well, thank you very much, and thank you for having me today. It's a privilege and honor to talk to you guys and pass on my passion, because I want everybody to do this race. I want everybody to do it. I've been lucky to just keep doing it! What if I didn't get out of the Coast Guard in San Francisco? What if I had gotten out of the Coast Guard in Boston, where I started? I'd probably be with the Boston Marathon. But oh, yeah, I'm still doing that too. That's another podcast now, maybe in April. But yeah, I mean to keep doing it every year – three years, four years, five years – doing it and working it and talking to the race directors afterwards, and watching the race director and ownership change, but always having the passion. Our team with IMG, Jen Lau, Christian Dempster, Jim Eichhorn, Cynthia – she's having a baby so she couldn't make it – Bill Burke, he's been putting on races for 40 years! He's out on his bike today. I ran today, I swam today, I'm gonna ride my bike after this. I had an 11:00 meeting with Hoka, a company I work for. We're all into it, and we care. And that's why I put on the videos, because after so many meetings – before videos ten years ago, I'd do meetings. And I'd say at Sports Basement or wherever when I put on my Escape Academies, "Does anybody have any questions?" And if there were a hundred people in the room, a hundred people would answer, "Yes, I have a question."
Andrew: I bet, yeah!
Eric: And then after six or eight questions, there aren't any more questions because everybody's got the same questions: marine life, current, water temperature, and then maybe one on the bike or run. Maybe one about a sponsor or goodie bag, but it's mainly all about the swim. So I said, "Hey guys, I'm repeating myself WAY too much. This is ridiculous. Let's get on the contemporary best practices, let's get videos." So we had a USC film student help me, and we put on videos, and kept adapting them. And we'd send out Survey Monkeys afterwards, and we heard, "We want MORE swimming and sighting information!" So it is true: the Jeremiah O'Brien, the Ford Towers, the piers of Fort Mason, the trees of Fort Mason, the Fontana Towers, all those things. And people say, "Well, when do I know when to start turning?" And it's like, no; I think gravity, the moon, and all that will take care of you, that will pull you out. But yeah, after all the questions, I decided we have to have these videos. And then we did the videos, and what's cool about this year's race is how many people recognized me from the videos, and what an honor and privilege it is to be known for this race. This is a classic race. In cycling, there's Flèche Wallonne, Paris–Roubaix: one-day classics, and we are it. We are a modified Olympic distance. We are what the city gives us. But it's a classic event. It's been going on for years, no matter what the course. It's always been different. Every year it's just a little bit different, never the same.
So the event for me this year went quite well. The newsletters and the videos went out, and the swim was tough. One of my jobs is to set the tides – well, somebody else sets the tides – but I look at the tide charts and see which weekend's going to be the best. We always want a high tide that's around 2:30, 3:30, 4:30, 5:30, so that it's pulling out at 7:30 when we jump off the boat. So this weekend – and I've set them for the next few years – it's all based on tide charts, which I'm familiar with from being in the maritime industry all my life. Both my parents were naval officers, so I grew up on the ocean, and was in the Coast Guard. So all these things considered, I thought this is a great swim day, August 15. And it was, but we had a good couple-knot tide pulling out, 1.7 mph per knot. And then we had a nice little wind coming from the west, so they sort of nullified each other, because we had the tide going east to west, and the chop going west to east, so that added some. Ben Kanute, he and his wife have a home, stayed here in Napa many times, and he came up to me right after. He was like, "Eric, tell me about this swim, what happened, man? I was ten minutes off from last year or the year before." I'm like, "No problem, man, no problem," but a lot of people, age groupers, on social were very relieved to get that feedback from Ben Kanute. He's a great guy. They felt better because it was a choppy swim.
Andrew: So Eric, I'm going to be 100% honest with you in talking about the swim. I actually really kind of like choppy water. To me it makes it fun to swim in choppy water, so I enjoyed that. I don't know why, Eric, but I got it in my head. I know tens of thousands of people swim in that bay every year. Tens of thousands of people have done this race. You said yourself: you swam in that bay over 80 times. But for whatever reason, I had it in my head that sharks were out there, and I was like, "You know what, no one's ever gotten attacked. I'm 100% going to be safe. That is not going to be a problem on race day." But I just knew, it was in my head, I'm like, "I'm going to get in that water, and that's all I'm going to be thinking about." So I honestly didn't worry about sighting, I didn't worry about which direction I was swimming; I made my entire goal for the swim was to stick with somebody else. .So I just hopped from other swimmer to other swimmer, just making sure because just as long as I was with somebody else, I felt safe. So I don't remember worrying about the chop, I don't remember worrying about the tides and what was going where. I was just worried about staying with somebody else so I felt like I wasn't going to get eaten by a shark. And I didn't! So you know, in the end it worked. I had a blast with the swim, and I've told so many triathlete friends, "You gotta do this race, even if you do it just once, because it's absolutely worth it."
So Eric, we've talked a lot about the race, and we'll talk a little bit more about it before we close today. But I just want people to hear for a moment your story, and your past in triathlon. Before you were addicted to jumping off of a ferry into San Francisco Bay with 2,000 of your closest friends, you had an alcohol addiction that you're very open about having wrestled with. Tell us a little about that battle with alcohol, and the role that running specifically played in your recovery.
Eric: Sure, and I always bring a friend with me to swim, it's usually my buddy who used to play for the Oakland Raiders. He was a lineman, and he's now a security guy. He's like 300 pounds, so when I swim with him I figure the sharks' are gonna get my big buddy Steve instead of me. Yeah, they'll get a bite out of Steve instead of a skinny, bitter old man like me. They'll spit me out.
Hey, yeah, thank you. When I was 14 I started, and just in my Irish blood, I just know it from genetics and past family members. It's just not a good thing for me to drink. Some people can, some people can't. It has nothing to do with guts, because if it had to do with guts I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing with Alcatraz. If anybody ever challenges me it's like, "Oh, let's go do Alcatraz instead of shots. Let's see how badass you are after that." Anyhow, yeah, I was 14 years old, and then I went for ten years; 24 years old I stopped drinking. I went ten years hard. I puked in class in high school. I went out and had french fries and Jack Daniels for lunch, and had a joint for dessert, that sounded like a good idea. And I puked in class after running into class: Jack Daniels, french fries, that went over well on the hardwood of the desk. Then the teacher let it sit all the weekend, because it was Friday last period. First thing I had to do Monday morning was go back to class – psychology of course – clean the desk, and then go into in-school suspension. And there's your sign: but no, it didn't affect me, I just kept going. I went to spring break for one week, and I thought, "My god, you can drink from 6:00 a.m. to 3:00 a.m., and you've got a beach and the lifeguard, and life is great." So at Daytona Beach, I stayed four years. It was the first year MTV went from Fort Lauderdale to Daytona. They had worn out their welcome in Fort Lauderdale down south, so they went a couple hundred miles north to Daytona. I ended up working for MTV, and at the beach lifeguarding, and every job I had I got fired from because I was drunk and using all the time. Then I went into the Coast Guard, and I lasted a couple years. I was good underway. I was qualified in small arms, big arms. I was a good shot, I could hit anything at the range. I'd be the first one picked to go on boardings on Russian vessels, Japanese vessels, all over the Behring Sea. Helicopter ops, I'd be either refueling or I'd be up on the helo. I was good underway. But give me liberty, and that's where I was a nightmare. One day I brought a half-gallon bottle of tequila on board, and I drank most of it underway and ended up brushing my teeth – and speaking of brushing your teeth, Holy Toledo this is ironic – every time I did a shot of tequila, I would brush my teeth so I wouldn't get busted with alcohol on my breath. But I passed out on the flight deck, and there was no denying that. I went to the hospital, 0.354 on duty, January 28, 1988 on the Broadway pier in San Diego while the Redskins were beating the Broncos like a drum. Life was just a nightmare. I got kicked out of the Coast Guard, and I was basically homeless because I didn't have an address. But that still wasn't my sign. I kept going hard. I lived in the car, I had a $100 Plymouth Valiant. I lived in a boarding house in Alameda for $185 a month. Second month, I couldn't pay rent. I was in my car and I'd have to sneak in at night and not have the lights on, because the landlord was my neighbor and he'd see the lights on and come knocking for his rent. Life was just a mess, and I just hit bottom. I started to run and lose weight, and a buddy of mine in the recovery group said, "Hey, there's these things, triathlon, you should try it," and on a dare I did in '89. He said, "If you do it, I'll pay for it." He never paid me back, but that's okay, it was a good investment. It was only a hundred bucks.
Yeah, it was the first year in '89, and I didn't know anybody. I did not know ANYBODY in '89, and I met a guy named Paul Huddle. Paul Huddle is the Southwest director for Ironman, and he's married to Paula Newby-Frasier. Normal Paul Huddle from Arizona. And he is still – I talked to him this morning – he's one of my best friends and oldest friends in the industry. It's about relationships. I knew no one back in '89, and you know what? On Saturday and Sunday, I consider every one of you that earned the medal that Coach has behind him. The T-shirt you have on, the jacket I have on, we all earned it. You are all my friends. It's like when you get in the elevator with someone that's got the M-Dot tattoo or a chain that has the M-Dot on it, you know that's a fraternity, a sorority, a group. Less than 1% of the world's population's ever done a marathon, let alone an Ironman or Alcatraz, so it's less than 1% of the world's population since Adam and Eve if that was the case, or cavemen. So it's a very small group of us. You're my friend. Everyone's my friend. And everyone's a triathlete, they just don't know it yet. That's a line from MY podcast. I just love it, and what I want is for everyone to feel the inclusive love of the finish line. It's what brings us all together. I want everyone to feel that sense of accomplishment so that they can equate it to a peer pressure, or being cut off on the highway, or a job interview, or some life lesson that triathlon and endurance athletics and the discipline of it can teach you, in how to be resourceful and dig deep and pull more out of your body than you knew was there, and the potential that we all have. I just love being able to turn sweat into money for others, serve others, help others, find out more about yourself.
Years ago a friend of mine, a young kid at the pool where my son – who now is an all-American swimmer going to the University of Hawaii next year – when he was 8 years old, I would bring him to the pool every day, because he had to go to the pool. So I'm like, "Okay, let's go," and met these lifeguards. My wife at the time was a twin, and when you marry a twin, you're almost married to the twin. So there were these twins at the pool: one was a pool director, and one was a lifeguard. The pool director did some home economics senior class project, but Lacy wanted to do a triathlon for a senior class project. So I said, "Okay, let's do Alcatraz." The mother hated the idea. I always had someone with me when I'd train the kid, so I gave her a wetsuit, gave her an entry. She had done one mini-sprint triathlon before at 18 years old. There were six people in the 18 to 24 age group. She got sixth in her age group. She finished the race. She put her goggles on because she was crying on the boat, she filled her goggles up halfway with tears. And she was waiting for me to jump off, but I had jumped off the boat already. Oh, and she was captain of her swim team, so she could swim quite well. Then she got off the swim, and she got on the bike, and she got on the run, but she finished. And her mother never liked the idea of this, but on race day, for the first time ever, the mother said, "Hey, I think this is really cool, this is awesome." Well, something happened that day to the mother. She watched her daughter finish the Escape from Alcatraz. Now the mother's 50 pounds lighter. I see her every year at the Thanksgiving run, and she gives me a big hug and a kiss, and she just reminds me of what an impact I made on her their family, because the kid wrote me a letter saying, "Hey, you provided me a link to my mother that I never had before." Then the twin sister comes up to me a month later and says, "Hey, can you train me to be a triathlete so I can have a relationship with my mother like my sister does?" Whoa yeah! That's real! So it's like, swim, bike, run, have fun, but so much more happens out there. It's like Dave McGillivray says, "Yeah, it's the Boston Marathon, but it's so much more."
You know, helping people is just the best, no matter what it is. Whether it's raising money for the Pat Tillman Foundation, Best Buddies, Team in Training – the old philanthropics of endurance. But it's just helping others and getting them to the finish line. Days like Sunday make me remember how many friends I have. And luckily, through the videos, the IMG has given me the opportunity to be the face of, that I can affect that many people's lives. I was at Mile 7, and as a woman was running, she's like, "Are you the guy from the race? Are you the guy from the videos?" I'm like, "Yeah," and she says, "Thank you so much for caring about this race!" That's what she opened up with, she said, "Thank you so much for CARING about this race!" I said, "You can tell?" She said, "Yeah, I can tell!" And then she comes up – I'm doing awards, and she won an age group – and I said, "Are you the woman that was talking to me at Mile 7?" She's like, "Yeah!" So, you know, it's friends like that, and like Steve Titan and Jerry Mandello, Kathy Winkler, and seeing people back year after year after year. It's just great. And it's Alcatraz. It's one-and-done. It's a one-off. We had a series, we had Beijing, we had different qualifying races. Hey, it works for Ironman. It didn't really work well for Xterra, but hey, it is what it is, and it's just a great race, and we're looking forward to producing it for as long as San Francisco will have us back. We hope that it was a good race for everyone in the city, and I just can't say enough for it. You're able to finish it and be at lunch at about lunchtime instead of when you're doing the 70.3 or the full, the day is gone. But it's something you can bring friends to. Yeah, it's fun, I love it.
Andrew: So John, Eric, I'd love to hear from both of you guys here, because Eric obviously you're so experienced at this course. John, as one of our top coaches, you just absorb things so quickly. A lot of athletes, they have this as a bucket list race. They want to do this race, they want to get their name in that lottery and hope it gets drawn, and travel to San Francisco, hop off the boat, do the whole thing. So for athletes that have this on their bucket list, what are your training tips for being ready to head into this race and have a successful day?
Eric: Okay, well definitely check out the EscapeAlcatrazTri.com website to find out when the lottery is going to open up again. I think it's September 1, but check that out on EscapeAlcatrazTri.com. Definitely check out the videos and the newsletters, they're there for a reason. I don't waste my own time, I don't waste my own money. I take care of my time, I take care of my money, and my time and money takes care of me, and the same things is for everybody that I want to involve in this race. If it's out there on a newsletter, it's not fluff. It is all content, and it's stuff that – wouldn't you guys agree? Those newsletters are good?
Andrew: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Eric: A lot of people just blow it off, you know, but it's like, "Hey, it's real." And I can tell, if people ask me questions on Friday or Saturday before the race, "You didn't read the newsletter, you didn't watch the video, did you?" "No, I didn't." And actually, sometimes I've just said, "Go watch the video," and they get upset at me. But if they watch the video they'll get the answer, and they'll be able to repeat it. I would say cold swimming, ocean swimming, but also neck-up. Understand, yeah, you've got to navigate, but there's not too much difference between the pool and the Bay, but it's neck-up. It's mental. The bike, getting out of your saddle in a spin class, climbing a lot. Then on the adaptive for the gym for training with Alcatraz in the winter, or at a site that's not conducive outside sometimes. The stair-stepper, going both forward and backwards, because of the sand ladder. Doing maybe a spin class, and doing the stair-stepper for ten minutes, and then finishing things off with a treadmill. Or doing a treadmill and then a Stairmaster and then a spin class, and finish off the bike, so you're not pounding at the end of your workout. Easier on your legs to just spin out at the end. Adaptive training, definitely, open mind, doing what you said. Peter Butler, one of the original race directors – I want to talk about the original race directors, Peter Butler – he used to say, "Whether it's in the water or on the Golden Gate Bridge: turn around, look to your left, look to your right, and know that you're in between the Rock and a hard place."
Andrew: Absolutely. So John, having been to the race one time yourself: as Coach John Mayfield, what would you tell your athletes if they were preparing to head into this race?
John: It's definitely a power event, where oftentimes we're focusing on stamina in triathlon, especially those focusing on those long-course events. We know how critical power is in those stamina events as well, but this really is a power event. As we mentioned, the swim was tough with the current going one way, the chop on top of the water going the other. It's a power event, just to power through. Having proficient open water skills was critical. There are some events that you can somewhat fake it, where if you're in a very inland protected lake or something like that, it's not that different from the pool. But when you get out there, you jump off the boat, you hit that cold water, you experience that fight or flight reaction, you need to be able to handle that. Then you need to have those skills to control yourself and to get out of the water. One thing that's unique is there are two buoys on the entire course, and those buoys are on boats. So you can see them – it took me probably halfway through before I actually saw the buoy, and I was like, "Oh, that's that buoy they were talking about on top of the boat. Okay." So it was very comforting to know what I was somewhat in the right place. But yeah, you jump off this boat, and you're using the San Francisco skyline as your sighting, so having good sighting skills is critical. Again, you're having that power. You're fighting against a very strong current that is trying to take you out into the ocean, so you've got to have good proficiency there. The bike is over 1,000 feet of gain. I think it's actually closer to 1,500 feet of gain over 18 miles. There are very little flat sections. When I say that, it's like half a mile of 18 miles is flat, so really it's working on power on the bike and having that ability to climb. And this is something that's a common mistake. I live on the Texas Gulf Coast. It is completely flat; I did not ride any hills in preparation for this event. But I was still able to focus my training on building power, and power is power. So I didn't climb a single hill. I didn't do a single workout with more than 100 feet of elevation gain, and like you mentioned, I'm prepping for Ironman, so I'm doing 100 mile rides with two or three hundred feet of elevation gain. We did that in one mile in the Alcatraz course. But being able to focus on that power and have that high FTP, I was able to climb the hills. So you don't necessarily have to go ride those hills in order to prepare for a race like this, but you do have to really focus on building your power as opposed to your stamina. Then same thing on the run. The course is on pavement for maybe a couple hundred yards at best, then it converts to trails, you're going uphill, you're going up concrete stairs, you're going up sand stairs, you're running on the beach. One thing that kind of surprised me was how heavy that sand was. It was very loose. Man, it was tough to get through. But again, that's where power on the run comes in, and you've got to be able to power through that. That's really where all those things come in. It truly is a power event, so the higher you can build those thresholds, the better you're going to be, and the more fun, the more you're going to be able to enjoy that Alcatraz experience.
Andrew: Yep, so the one thing I'll add, John, is I would encourage people to, "Okay, you want to do Alcatraz, you want to go into that race knowing it takes some power, knowing it's a little bit different." I would also start incorporating some back and core into your routine. Just a couple times a week, 15 to 20 minutes, maybe you get off the bike from that bike workout, you get done with that run workout, spend 15 minutes doing some planks or core work. That was the first thing to really start wearing out for me. I was on the bike, and just between fighting the bay water and coming up to sight and being on the bike, climbing those hills. I don't think I've ever, in any of my half marathons, any of my sprints or Olympics I've done before, I've never noticed my lower back. I've never noticed my core muscles breaking down. But I was halfway through the bike leg and I could feel those muscles were overworked. They were at their limit. They were like, "Hey, we're not in Texas anymore!" So I would just encourage people to maybe hit those abs, hit those core workouts a little bit more going into this race. So that way when you are maybe out of your element going up some San Francisco hills, doing some trail running that you're not used to doing, you've got the core to support your lungs, to support the rest of your body. So I would say that.
Another thing that I would say, and I'll use this to transition us into our next question: John's aware of this, and some of our TriDot users are aware of this. Eric, you're hearing this for the first time. I jumped in the San Francisco Bay, and luckily where John and I jumped in, John jumped right after me. We were right by the camera where the live feed was, where people could watch athletes jumping in the water. So I've gone back and watched the live feed. I jumped in, and immediately upon making contact with the water, my timing chip just obliterated and fell off my leg. You can see it, you can see it floating away in the water away from me as I take off swimming. I became aware of it about two miles into the bike when we started to go up the first hill. I just went to glance down and make sure I was in the small chainring before I started shifting some gears, and that's when I noticed I did not have a timing chip. I immediately thought, "Anybody from TriDot who is tracking me right now is going to think that I drowned in the bay, because my timing chip is going to register that I'm in the bay." Sure enough, it was 12 hours after the race, I looked it up: my timing chip was still counting up as if I was still out there swimming somewhere in the bay. At about 13 hours after the race it finally transitioned to saying I did not finish. After the race, I wasn't worried about it. I knew I was going to finish in the middle of the pack, I knew I wasn't out there to podium. So I went to the timing officials. I showed them my watch, they wrote down my splits, and now if you go and look up me, I'm there and my splits are there. They're just from my watch. So the race officials took good care of me. I wasn't worked up about it. But I'll say this, my race day tip is this: it is an intense swim, you are jumping from a ferry into the water, so safety-pin that timing chip. Make sure when you come out of the water when you're taking off that wetsuit that it's still there before you go about the rest of your race. But for you guys, and Eric we'll start with you and then go to John, what is a mid-race tip that you would give to people to have a successful race once you're out there?
Eric: Sure. And yeah, Scott Langford, I can't say enough about him. Trinity Timing, stays calm, doesn't get rattled, and always has the athlete's back. I would say a mid-way swim, bike, and run tip would be this: there's equal need for anxiety and fear and respect for what you're doing. It's quite an undertaking to do the Escape from Alcatraz. Because if you're in Lake Placid or Coeur d'Alene and you don't make the swim cutoff, you're in a lake. If you're in Panama City and you don't make the bike cutoff, it's pretty flat. You can roll home, go by the Waffle House, say hello, get everything smothered and covered. But at Alcatraz at the swim, if you stop swimming you're going to end up at the Farallons like your timing chip. On the bike, if you don't know how to ride a bike you're going to end up on Seal Rock, where Coach was saying you come around the ocean and you see the cliff house. And if you don't make that eight-tenths of a mile from Balboa and the Great Highway to the VA Hospital – people literally, as I was riding by, were out of their pedals, click-click-click-click-click up the hill. Hey man, whatever it takes to get there, get there. And the sand ladder: no one's going to help you. There's no ski lift there, there's no little rope tow or anything like at a ski mountain. So basically, the swim, the bike, and the run can leave you stymied, senseless, directionless. You can't move. Yeah, I would say that you've got to take it as a serious undertaking. But it's like high school: be accountable, be responsible. If you studied, you know you're going to get an A or a B, or do your best. I've never entered into a test knowing, "Oh, geez, I hope a get an A even though I didn't study for an A." I studied for a C, so I got a C. You get what you study for. So do the same thing and take accountability. I nailed the swim this year, and that's because I listened to the damn videos, and you know what, I guess I had something to do with that. The Fontana towers, the trees of Fort Mason, the piers of Fort Mason, the tower, the dome of the Palace of Fine Arts, the Golden Gate Yacht Club, the red roof of the Saint Francis Yacht Club. There they were! I nailed the swim. I didn't over-swim, but yet I did 2.1 on my swim. I swam 38:28, 3,828 yards, 2.1 miles. A lot of other people over-swam as well. I didn't over-swim in the actual point-to-point, but my arm swings, how many turnovers did I have. So the biggest thing is you gotta do your homework, but don't mentally screw yourself. I remember like my sixth year I was videotaped crying, "Why do I do this? Oh my god, I paid for this!" I was having a mental weakness, a moment, and that was brought on by myself. And as I know, don't screw yourself. Positive. It's like what I read on the boat, and I hope that these things make a difference, "Think positive." Your mind believes what you tell it, so why not fill it with positive thoughts as you're racing? Believe in yourself. If you've trained hard, and get yourself into good shape, you will be able to race to your potential. If you've done your homework, you will do your best. Imagine what it's like to cross the finish line. Visualize. All those things that I said in the prerace meetings and on the boat. Neck-up stuff. When it comes to Alcatraz, you can do this. If you do the homework, you can do it. The biggest thing is don't mentally screw yourself. Listen to the videos, listen to others, and you can make it. Because I saw people out there on Sunday who look a lot different than in '89. The sport's growing, and I love it. I want everybody. So you know, "Well, I can't do that," yeah you can! You can do it, you just gotta be accountable. For this particular triathlon – I'm not saying any other triathlon, I'm saying this particular race – the newsletters and the videos are spot on. If they weren't we'd do it again, and we have revised the videos to accommodate the changes in the course, or the changes in best practices of the sport.
Andrew: Yeah, one thing I found very helpful: I remember the newsletter and the video that went out talking about the bike course. It even gave us recommendations on, "Here are the parts of the course where you will most likely be able to take in water and nutrition."
Eric: Thank you very much, I love that!
Andrew: And they were right, because when you're bombing downhills with a corner coming up, that's not really the time to reach for your bottle, and I so I was able to keep in mind, "Okay, this is where Eric told me to take my bottle and nutrition," and I was able to drink accordingly.
Eric: Golden Gate Park.
Andrew: Yeah, exactly that, before and after. And something else that John and I talked about doing that I did every single time I went to the pool, leading up to this race after I'd registered. You know, you go to the pool's edge and you get your goggles on, you take two or three minutes to work your nerve up to jump in the chilly water. Both of said, "Okay, we're not going to let ourselves do that. We're going to put our goggles on, we're going to put our swim caps on, and we're just going to jump in." Because on race day we're just going to have to jump in. Then when I would be swimming in the pool, I would just visualize. I was trying to picture the bay. Every time I would come up and breathe to the right in the pool, I was trying to picture the Golden Gate Bridge being on that side. And I was trying to picture the other bridge being on the left side, and just trying to put myself mentally in that position before I even got there. That's something that I did that I think really helped me in my race. John, what are a couple things, having raced it, that you would tell athletes, once you get out there on course, these are some tips to really executing the race well?
John: Well, just kind of echoing off of what Eric said, it's about that preparation. I think perhaps one of the best tips – and I was even a little reluctant with this one because I love my time trial bike so much, and I know I'm so much faster on my time trial bike – but Eric said leave your time trial bike at home. As sexy and as cool as it is, leave it home. And yeah, I got off that bike, and I said, "Man, I can't imagine doing that on my time trial bike." I was so glad that I had a road bike to do that, just for the ability to climb, the ability to descend, the technical aspects of it. So Eric thanks for that, I was really glad I listened to that. That is probably I would say almost the #1 tip, is borrow, rent, do what you gotta do, to have a road bike for that. You're going to be happy. Then I would almost say #2 would be – and I didn't have this but I wish I did – I wish I had trail shoes. I went just in my regular running shoes, but I think I would have perhaps – not a major thing – but I think it just would have been a little bit better had I had trail shoes. Because again, as I mentioned, there's very little that's on pavement, and then just running across the beach, up the sand ladder, all those, it would've been perhaps just a little bit better equipped with some trail shoes.
Andrew: Yeah, I certainly didn't take my race day Nike Vaporflys. I took my more beat-up day-to-day workout shoes, and definitely didn't regret that. What is funny, John, you talk about renting, borrowing, or bringing your road bike – between you, me, and TriDot coach Jeff Raines, who also raced this race for the first time –you borrowed one, I brought my road bike, and then Jeff rented a road bike. So all three of us literally took Eric's advice and made sure we had a road bike for the race, and definitely don't regret it. We had one TriDot athlete who was out there who had a mechanical issue with his bike and couldn't shift from the big ring to the small ring, and literally was able to do the entire race in the big ring. I would have been walking up the hills myself if that was me.
John: That was impressive, yeah.
Andrew: So shout out to him. But Eric, just to kind of land the plane on our main set here today – lots of good content about Alcatraz, lots of stories and history and encouragement, reasons why people should do this race – for anybody who is looking to do this, who's interested in it, what's the information they need to know about trying to get into this race for next year?
Eric: Sure. You know, I've done the numbers: over 50 miles of the swim, 600 on the bike, 290 on the run over 32 years.
Andrew: Incredible.
Eric: I keep coming back and accumulating those times because I love it, and I want everyone, like I said many times, I want everyone to feel that finish line. I would say check out the website, start training. You can do it, it's something that can lead to more and bigger things. A lot of people do it once and say I'll never do it again, and then the next week they're calling their buddies saying, "You gonna sign up?" And they do. They do it again, and they keep coming back, and then they keep bringing friends. It's something that is worth doing, if not 30 times, at least once. If it wasn't all that, I wouldn't be coming back year after year. If it wasn't life-changing for me annually – it's not so much life-changing for me personally, but when I can help others change their life, and then they give me a report back, "This is what happened," that's great. Just be persistent, try out the lottery. And we had a lot of family racing together. Ben Kanute and his dad raced, I saw a father-daughter racing together, so it's family bonding. And it's not the distance of the half-Ironman. That's 70.3 miles, and that's quite an undertaking. A lot of people jump in and they'll do a half. At least with Alcatraz, do a sprint, get a race under your belt, but it's definitely something that will help you in every aspect of your life, if you allow it.
Cool down theme: Great set everyone! Let’s cool down.
Andrew: For our cooldown today, I want to take just a few moments to explore Eric Gilsenan the Podcaster. I love seeing other endurance podcasts do well. It just means folks are engaging in the sport that we all love so much. Now, Eric is the co-host of the Hoka and Ironman Beyond podcast, where he and professional triathlete Chelsea Sodaro interview all sorts of folks from the triathlon industry. There are a lot of podcast listening hours in the week, and my hope is that the TriDot podcast will fill one of those hours for you, and then a show like Eric's can fill another one of those hours for you. So Eric, just for our listeners today who maybe aren't familiar and are looking for a new podcast to check out, what can they expect to hear when they tune in to you guys?
Eric: Sure, thank you. One of the cooperative marketing programs that Hoka, one of the companies I represent, and Ironman, another company I represent, we've done is the Humans of Hoka videos. And with those videos that great director Mike O'Neill put together with his team, we were able to get a lot of content. Then with Covid we thought, "Well, we've got all this content and video, let's maybe try to put it into podcasts." So we did, with some voiceovers, and now we've done live interviews. So we've been able to interview Chelsea, because she ran track at Cal, she ran a 4:30 mile, she raced in the Diamond Leg as a professional runner until injury got her into triathlon. I believe Chelsea's going to do real well. She showed up to Ironman Santa Rosa on Friday pre-race meeting in Hokas, before she was sponsored by Hoka. I was the race announcer for Ironman Santa Rosa 70.3. She won on Saturday, outrunning Paula Findlay and Rinny. Rinny went up to her and said, "Who are you? I've never heard of you before. You're gonna be great!" Then on Sunday, she came on IronKids to help out, and she was wearing another pair of Hokas. So three different days, three different Hokas. She wasn't sponsored by me before. I knew she was gonna do real well. That year she got fourth in Nice at 70.3 Worlds. I sponsored her the next month and have ever since, and I thought, "What a great person to have on with me for the podcast." The podcast now has actually tapered to Chelsea focusing on women's issues. I'm working with people like Scott Tinley, and we've got a Dave McGillivray podcast coming up soon, so I'm working with some of the classic people who have been around a long time.
Andrew: Very cool, yeah.
Eric: We got Morgon Latimore, a retiring Marine coming in. He's got quite a following on the east coast, a great man. So we're diversifying. We just want everyone to swim, bike, run, have fun, feel the feeling that you, Andrew, and John share with each other and other clients, and your coaching routine, and getting people back into the game of life. So yeah, we just hope the podcasts help others get motivated, and we want to tell stories. You know, I'm Irish. Reilly, we're Irish. The Irish didn't write things down. There was a guy called the Limerick, and he would go from county to county and tell one village what was going on down in another village. They would never write anything down, but they were talkers. We're just talkers. We just want to pass stories on.
Andrew: Very cool. Well, just like an athlete doesn't have to train with TriDot to listen to the TriDot podcast, you don't have to run in Hokas or compete in Ironman events to listen to Eric and Chelsea on the Beyond podcast. Here is a fun clip of Eric from the Beyond podcast.
Chelsea Sodaro: Welcome to the Chelsea and Eric Show! Eric, so great to be here with you.
Eric: We have an unbelievable interview today. I met him years ago, and he's just a regular guy. He is a regular cool guy, but he happens to be the 2004 Indie car series champion as well as a legend, Tony Kanaan. We both did 12:40's in Kona. You in 2011, me in '02. So I think maybe next year we gotta both race at Kona again, how about that?
Tony Kanaan: I agree, let's do it! You know, the most depressing part of my Kona experience was the banquet the next day. I sat there watching all the age-groupers getting their awards, and sitting me and my wife, and then we looked age group from 70 to 75, I would have finished fifth with my time. So I told Lauren, I said, if I keep doing the same time until I'm 75, I'll finish in the top five.
Chelsea: Hmm, business.
Eric: We got hope!
Chelsea: Going home with some hardware! Are there any other endurance events that you'd like to do outside of triathlon, or are you really just all in on Kona?
Tony: No, I did Kona in 2011. I would love to do the Race Across America one day. I would love to do that. Get a team and just get in a motor home and just go for days, hating life but loving life at the same time. That is something that I will do. Obviously I need time.
Eric: I think you got two teammates right here, and Chelsea, my goodness, the way she rides, oh lord! Way to win, way to win!
Tony: Are you in, are you guys doing it?
Chelsea: Let's do it! I need a couple years before we do that project, but I’m in.
Tony: Me too, let's plan now for a couple of years, and we'll get it done!
Eric: Time to fly! Nice.
Andrew: Well that's it for today folks! I want to thank Eric Gilsenan for sharing his story and talking all things Escape from Alcatraz with us today. And thanks to Coach John Mayfield for joining the conversation as well. A big thanks to DeltaG for partnering with us on today's episode. Head to DeltaGketones.com to learn more about fueling with the DeltaG performance ketone ester. And remember, you can use promo code TRIDOT20 for 20% off your DeltaG order. Enjoying the podcast? Have any triathlon questions or topics you want to hear us talk about? Head to TriDot.com/podcast and click on "Leave us a voicemail" to get your voice asking a question on our show. We'll have a new show coming your way soon. Until then, happy training!
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